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It's looking like we'll have Chinese OSS to thank for being able to host our own intelligence, free from the whims of proprietary megacorps.
I know it doesn't make financial sense to self-host given how cheap OSS inference APIs are now, but it's comforting not being beholden to anyone or requiring a persistent internet connection for on-premise intelligence.
Didn't expect to go back to macOS but they're basically the only feasible consumer option for running large models locally.
> doesn't make financial sense to self-host
I guess that's debatable. I regularly run out of quota on my claude max subscription. When that happens, I can sort of kind of get by with my modest setup (2x RTX3090) and quantized Qwen3.
And this does not even account for privacy and availability. I'm in Canada, and as the US is slowly consumed by its spiral of self-destruction, I fully expect at some point a digital iron curtain will go up. I think it's prudent to have alternatives, especially with these paradigm-shattering tools.
I think AI may be the only place you could get away with calling a 2x350W GPU rig "modest".
That's like ten normal computers worth of power for the GPUs alone.
That's maybe a few dollars to tens of dollars in electricity per month depending on where in the US you live
> That's like ten normal computers worth of power for the GPUs alone.
Maybe if your "computer" in question is a smartphone? Remember that the M3 Ultra is a 300w+ chip that won't beat one of those 3090s in compute or raster efficiency.
I wouldn't class the M3 Ultra as a "normal" computer either. That's a big-ass workstation. I was thinking along the lines of a typical Macbook or Mac Mini or Windows laptop, which are fine for 99% of anyone who isn't looking to play games or run gigantic AI models locally.
Those aren't "normal" computers, either. They're iPad chips running in the TDP envelope of a tablet, usually with iPad-level performance to match.
Did you even try to read and understand the parent comment? They said they regularly run out of quota on the exact subscription you're advising they subscribe to.
Pot, kettle
Self-hosting training (or gaming) makes a lot of sense, and once you have the hardware self-hosting inference on it is an easy step.
But if you have to factor in hardware costs self-hosting doesn't seem attractive. All the models I can self-host I can browse on openrouter and instantly get a provider who can get great prices. With most of the cost being in the GPUs themselves it just makes more sense to have others do it with better batching and GPU utilization
If you can get near 100% utilization for your own GPUs (i.e. you're letting requests run overnight and not insisting on any kind of realtime response) it starts to make sense. OpenRouter doesn't have any kind of batched requests API that would let you leverage that possibility.
For inference, even with continuous batching, getting 100% MFUs is basically impossible to do in practice. Even the frontier labs struggle with this in highly efficient infiniband clusters. Its slightly better with training workloads just due to all the batching and parallel compute, but still mostly unattainable with consumer rigs (you spend a lot of time waiting for I/O).
I also don't think the 100% util is necessary either, to be fair. I get a lot of value out of my two rigs (2x rtx pro 6000, and 4x 3090) even though it may not be 24/7 100% MFU. I'm always training, generating datasets, running agents, etc. I would never consider this a positive ROI measured against capex though, that's not really the point.
Isn't this just saying that your GPU use is bottlenecked by things such as VRAM bandwidth and RAM-VRAM transfers? That's normal and expected.
No I'm saying there are quite a few more bottlenecks than that (I/O being a big one). Even in the more efficient training frameworks, there's per-op dispatch overhead in python itself. All the boxing/unboxing of python objects to C++ handles, dispatcher lookup + setup, all the autograd bookkeeping, etc.
All of the bottlenecks in sum is why you'd never get to 100% MFUs (but I was conceding you probably don't need to in order to get value)
Comment was deleted :(
In Silicon Valley we pay PG&E close to 50 cents per kWh. An RTX 6000 PC uses about 1 kW at full load, and renting such a machine from vast.ai costs 60 cents/hour as of this morning. It's very hard for heavy-load local AI to make sense here.
Yikes.. I pay ~7¢ per kWh in Quebec. In the winter the inference rig doubles as a space heater for the office, I don't feel bad about running local energy-wise.
And you are forgetting the fact that things like vast.ai subscriptions would STILL be more expensive than Openrouter's api pricing and even more so in the case of AI subscriptions which actively LOSE money for the company.
So I would still point out the GP (Original comment) where yes, it might not make financial sense to run these AI Models [They make sense when you want privacy etc, which are all fair concerns but just not financial sense]
But the fact that these models are open source still means that they can be run when maybe in future the dynamics might shift and it might make sense running such large models locally. Even just giving this possibility and also the fact that multiple providers could now compete in say openrouter etc. as well. All facts included, definitely makes me appreciate GLM & Kimi compared to proprietory counterparts.
Edit: I highly recommend this video a lot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmYNK0kqaDI [AI subscription vs H100]
This video is honestly one of the best in my opinion about this topic that I watched.
Why did you quote yourself at the end of this comment?
Oops sorry. Fixed it now but I am trying a HN progressive extension and what it does is if I have any text selected it can actually quote it and I think this is what might've happened or such a bug I am not sure.
It's fixed now :)
> I regularly run out of quota on my claude max subscription. When that happens, I can sort of kind of get by with my modest setup (2x RTX3090) and quantized Qwen3.
When talking about fallback from Claude plans, The correct financial comparison would be the same model hosted on OpenRouter.
You could buy a lot of tokens for the price of a pair of 3090s and a machine to run them.
> You could buy a lot of tokens for the price of a pair of 3090s and a machine to run them.
That's a subjective opinion, to which the answer is "no you can't" for many people.
Did the napkin math on M3 Ultra ROI when DeepSeek V3 launched: at $0.70/2M tokens and 30 tps, a $10K M3 Ultra would take ~30 years of non-stop inference to break even - without even factoring in electricity. Clearly people aren't self-hosting to save money.
I've got a lite GLM sub $72/yr which would require 138 years to burn through the $10K M3 Ultra sticker price. Even GLM's highest cost Max tier (20x lite) at $720/yr would buy you ~14 years.
And it's worth noting that you can get DeepSeek at those prices from DeepSeek (Chinese), DeepInfra (US with Bulgarian founder), NovitaAI (US), AtlasCloud (US with Chinese founder), ParaSail (US), etc. There is no shortage of companies offering inference, with varying levels of trustworthiness, certificates and promises around (lack of) data retention. You just have to pick one you trust
Everyone should do the calculation for themselves. I too pay for couple of subs. But I'm noticing having an agent work for me 24/7 changes the calculation somewhat. Often not taken into account: the price of input tokens. To produce 1K of code for me, the agent may need to churn through 1M of tokens of codebase. IDK if that will be cached by the API provider or not, but that makes x5-7 times price difference. OK discussion today about that and more https://x.com/alexocheema/status/2020626466522685499
Doing inference with a Mac Mini to save money is more or less holding it wrong. Of course if you buy some overpriced Apple hardware it’s going to take years to break even.
Buy a couple real GPUs and do tensor parallelism and concurrent batch requests with vllm and it becomes extremely cost competitive to run your own hardware.
> Doing inference with a Mac Mini to save money is more or less holding it wrong.
No one's running these large models on a Mac Mini.
> Of course if you buy some overpriced Apple hardware it’s going to take years to break even.
Great, where can I find cheaper hardware that can run GLM 5's 745B or Kimi K2.5 1T models? Currently it requires 2x M3 Ultras (1TB VRAM) to run Kimi K2.5 at 24 tok/s [1] What are the better value alternatives?
Six months ago I'd have said EPYC Turin. You could do a heck of a build with 12Ch DDR5-6400 and a GPU or two for the dense model parts. 20k would have been a huge budget for a homelab CPU/GPU inference rig at the time. Now 20k won't buy you the memory.
I don't think an Apple PC can run full Deepseek or GLM models.
Even if you quantize the hell out of the models to fit in the memory, they will be very slow.
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Your $5,000 PC with 2 GPUs could have bought you 2 years of Claude Max, a model much more powerful and with longer context. In 2 years you could make that investment back in pay raise.
> In 2 years you could make that investment back in pay raise.
Could you elaborate? I fail to grasp the implication here.
> In 2 years you could make that investment back in pay raise.
you can't be a happy uber driver making more money in the next 24 months by having a fancy car fitted with the best FSD in town when all cars in your town have the same FSD.
But they don't have the same human in the loop though.
that software is called autonomous agents, the term autonomous has nothing to do with human in the loop, it is the complete opposite.
This claim has so many assumptions mixed in it's utterly useless
Unless you already had those cards, it probably still doesn’t make sense from a purely financial perspective unless you have other things you’re discounting for.
Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it though.
How does your quantized Qwen3 compares in code quality to Opus?
Not the person you’re responding to, but my experience with models up through Qwen3-coder-next is that they’re not even close.
They can do a lot of simple tasks in common frameworks well. Doing anything beyond basic work will just burn tokens for hours while you review and reject code.
It's just as fast, but not nearly as clever. I can push the context size to 120k locally, but quality of the work it delivers starts to falter above say 40k. Generally you have to feed it more bite-sized pieces, and keep one chat to one topic. It's definitely a step down from SOTA.
Comment was deleted :(
>...free from the whims of proprietary megacorps
In one sense yes, but the training data is not open, nor is the data selection criteria (inclusions/exclusions, censorship, safety, etc). So we are still subject to the whims of someone much more powerful that ourselves.
The good thing is that open weights models can be finetuned to correct any biases that we may find.
> Didn't expect to go back to macOS but their basically the only feasible consumer option for running large models locally.
I presume here you are referring to running on the device in your lap.
How about a headless linux inference box in the closet / basement?
Return of the home network!
Apple devices have high memory bandwidth necessary to run LLMs at reasonable rates.
It’s possible to build a Linux box that does the same but you’ll be spending a lot more to get there. With Apple, a $500 Mac Mini has memory bandwidth that you just can’t get anywhere else for the price.
With Apple devices you get very fast predictions once it gets going but it is inferior to nvidia precisely during prefetch (processing prompt/context) before it really gets going.
For our code assistant use cases the local inference on Macs will tend to favor workflows where there is a lot of generation and little reading and this is the opposite of how many of use use Claude Code.
Source: I started getting Mac Studios with max ram as soon as the first llama model was released.
> With Apple devices you get very fast predictions once it gets going but it is inferior to nvidia precisely during prefetch (processing prompt/context) before it really gets going
I have a Mac and an nVidia build and I’m not disagreeing
But nobody is building a useful nVidia LLM box for the price of a $500 Mac Mini
You’re also not getting as much RAM as a Mac Studio unless you’re stacking multiple $8,000 nVidia RTX 6000s.
There is always something faster in LLM hardware. Apple is popular for the price points of average consumers.
This. It's awful to wait 15 minutes for M3 Ultra to start generating tokens when your coding agent has 100k+ tokens in its context. This can be partially offset by adding DGX Spark to accelerate this phase. M5 Ultra should be like DGX Spark for prefill and M3 Ultra for token generation but who know when it will pop up and for how much? And it still will be at around 3080 GPU levels just with 512GB RAM.
All Apple devices have a NPU which is potentially able to save power for compute bound operations like prefill (at least if you're ok with FP16 FMA/INT8 MADD arithmetic). It's just a matter of hooking up support to the main local AI frameworks. This is not a speedup per se but gives you more headroom wrt. power and thermals for everything else, so should yield higher performance overall.
AFAIK, only CoreML can use Apple's NPU (ANE). Pytorch, MLX and the other kids on the block use MPS (the GPU). I think the limitations you mentioned relate to that (but I might be missing something)
Vllm-mlx with prefix caching helps with this.
> a $500 Mac Mini has memory bandwidth that you just can’t get anywhere else for the price.
The cheapest new mac mini is $600 on Apple's US store.
And it has a 128-bit memory interface using LPDDR5X/7500, nothing exotic. The laptop I bought last year for <$500 has roughly the same memory speed and new machines are even faster.
> The cheapest new mac mini is $600 on Apple's US store.
And you're only getting 16GB at that base spec. It's $1000 for 32GB, or $2000 for 64GB plus the requisite SOC upgrade.
> And it has a 128-bit memory interface using LPDDR5X/7500, nothing exotic.
Yeah, 128-bit is table stakes and AMD is making 256-bit SOCs as well now. Apple's higher end Max/Ultra chips are the ones which stand out with their 512 and 1024-bit interfaces. Those have no direct competition.
And then only Apple devices have 512GB of unified memory, which matters when you have to combine larger models (even MoE) with the bigger context/KV caching you need for agentic workflows. You can make do with less, but only by slowing things down a whole lot.
Only the M4 Pro Mac Minis have faster RAM than you’ll get in an off-the-shelf Intel/AMD laptop. The M4 Pros start at $1399.
You want the M4 Max (or Ultra) in the Mac Studios to get the real stuff.
But a $500 Mac Mini has nowhere near the memory capacity to run such a model. You'd need at least 2 512GB machines chained together to run this model. Maybe 1 if you quantized the crap out of it.
And Apple completely overcharges for memory, so.
This is a model you use via a cheap API provider like DeepInfra, or get on their coding plan. It's nice that it will be available as open weights, but not practical for mere mortals to run.
But I can see a large corporation that wants to avoid sending code offsite setting up their own private infra to host it.
The needed memory capacity depends on active parameters (not the same as total with a MoE model) and context length for the purpose of KV caching. Even then the KV cache can be pushed to system RAM and even farther out to swap, since writes to it are small (just one KV vector per token).
Indeed and I got two words for you:
Strix Halo
Also, cheaper... X99 + 8x DDR4 + 2696V4 + 4x Tesla P4s running on llama.cpp. Total cost about $500 including case and a 650W PSU, excluding RAM. Running TDP about 200W non peak 550W peak (everything slammed, but I've never seen it and I've an AC monitor on the socket). GLM 4.5 Air (60GB Q3-XL) when properly tuned runs at 8.5 to 10 tokens / second, with context size of 8K. Throw in a P100 too and you'll see 11-12.5 t/s (still tuning this one). Performance doesn't drop as much for larger model sizes as the internode communication and DDR4 2400 is the limiter, not the GPUs. I've been using this with 4 channel 96GB ram, recently updated to 128GB.
> Also, cheaper... X99 + 8x DDR4 + 2696V4 + 4x Tesla P4s running on llama.cpp. Total cost about $500 including case and a 650W PSU, excluding RAM.
Excluding RAM in your pricing is misleading right now.
That’s a lot of work and money just to get 10 tokens/sec
How much memory does yours have, what are you running on it, with what cache size, and how fast?
Not feasible for Large models, it takes 2x M3 512GB Ultra's to run the full Kimi K2.5 model at a respectable 24 tok/s. Hopefully the M5 Ultra will can improve on that.
you have 128GB strix halo machines for US$ ~3k
these run some pretty decent models locally, currently I'd recommend GPT-OSS 120GB, Qwen Coder Next 80B (either Q8 or Q6 quants, depending on speed/quality trade-offs) and the very best model you can run right now which is Step 3.5 Flash (ubergarm GGUF quant) with 256K context although this does push it to the limit - GLMs and nemotrons also worth trying depending on your priorities
there's clearly a big quantum leap in the SotA models using more than 512GB VRAM, but i expect that in a year or two, the current SotA is achievable with consumer level hardware, if nothing else hardware should catch up with running Kimi 2.5 for cheaper than 2x 512GB mac studio ultras - perhaps medusa halo next year supports 512GB and DDR5 comes down again, and that would put a local whatever the best open model of that size is next year within reach of under-US$5K hardware
the odd thing is that there isn't much in this whole range between 128GB and 512GB VRAM requirement to justify the huge premium you pay for Macs in that range - but this can change at any point as every other day there are announcements
And you can get Strix Halo in a Laptop that looks and feels like a Macbook Pro that can run Linux if you buy an HP ZBook G1A.
Super happy with that thing, only real downside is battery life.
I don't really care about being able to self host these models, but getting to a point where the hosting is commoditised so I know I can switch providers on a whim matters a great deal.
Of course, it's nice if I can run it myself as a last resort too.
>I know it doesn't make financial sense to self-host given how cheap OSS inference APIs are now
You can calculate the exact cost of home inference, given you know your hardware and can measure electrical consumption and compare it to your bill.
I have no idea what cloud inference in aggregate actually costs, whether it’s profitable or a VC infused loss leader that will spike in price later.
That’s why I’m using cloud inference now to build out my local stack.
Not concerned with electricity cost - I have solar + battery with excess supply where most goes back to the grid for $0 compensation (AU special).
But I did the napkin math on M3 Ultra ROI when DeepSeek V3 launched: at $0.70/2M tokens and 30 tps, a $10K M3 Ultra would take ~30 years of non-stop inference to break even - without even factoring in electricity. You clearly don't self-host to save money. You do it to own your intelligence, keep your privacy, and not be reliant on a persistent internet connection.
> Didn't expect to go back to macOS but their basically the only feasible consumer option for running large models locally.
Framework Desktop! Half the memory bandwidth of M4 Max, but much cheaper.
Does that equate to half the speed in terms of output? Any recommended benchmarks to look at?
hopefully it will spread - many open options, from many entities, globally.
it is brilliant business strategy from China so i expect it to continue and be copied - good things.
reminds me of Google's investments into K8s.
AFAIK they haven't released this one as OSS yet. They might eventually but its pretty obvious to me that at one point all/most those more powerful chinese models probably will stop being OSS.
They haven't published the weights yet, don't celebrate too early.
Now they have!
> It's looking like we'll have Chinese OSS to thank for being able to host our own intelligence, free from the whims of proprietary megacorps.
I don’t know where you draw the line between proprietary megacorp and not, but Z.ai is planning to IPO soon as a multi billion dollar company. If you think they don’t want to be a multi billion dollar megacorp like all of the other LLM companies I think that’s a little short sighted. These models are open weight, but I wouldn’t count them as OSS.
Also Chinese companies aren’t the only companies releasing open weight models. ChatGPT has released open weight models, too.
> Also Chinese companies aren’t the only companies releasing open weight models. ChatGPT has released open weight models, too.
I was with you until here. The scraps OpenAI has released don't really compare to the GLM models or DeepSeek models (or others) in both cadence and quality (IMHO).
our laptops, devices, phones, equipments, home stuff are all powered by Chinese companies.
It wouldn't surprise me if at some point in the future my local "Alexa" assistant will be fully powered by local Chinese OSS models with Chinese GPUs and RAM.
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I'm not sure being beholden to the whims of the Chinese Communist Party is an iota better than the whims of proprietary megacorps, especially given this probably will become part of a megacorp anyway.
It seems you missed the point entirely once you saw the word "Chinese". The point isn't that the models are from China. It's that the weights are open. You can download the weights and finetune them yourself. Nobody is beholden to anything.
Not going to call $30/mo for a github copilot subscription "cheap". More like "extortionary".
Yeah it's funny how the needle has moved on this kind of thing.
Two years ago people scoffed at buying a personal license for e.g. JetBrains IDEs which netted out to $120 USD or something a year; VS Code etc took off because they were "free"
But now they're dumping monthly subs to OpenAI and Anthropic that work out to the same as their car insurance payments.
It's not sustainable.
There's also zero incentive for individual companies to care: if I only want to use opus in VS code (and why would I use anything else, it's so much better at the job) I can either pay for copilot, which has excellent VS Code integration (because it has to), or I can pay Claude specifically and then use their extension which has the absolute worst experience because not only is the chat "whimsical, to make AI fun!", its interface is pat of the sidebar, so it's mutually exclusive with your file browser, search, etc.
So whether you pay Claude or GitHub, Claude gets paid the same. So the consumer ends up footing a bill that has no reason to exist, and has no real competition because open source models can't run at the scale of an Opus or ChatGPT.
(not unless the EU decides it's time for a "European Open AI Initiative" where any EU citizen gets free access to an EU wide datacenter backed large scale system that AI companies can pay to be part of, instead of getting paid to connect to)
Yeah that sounds great until it's running as an autonomous moltbot in a distributed network semi-offline with access to your entire digital life, and China sneaks in some hidden training so these agents turn into an army of sleeper agents.
Lol wat? I mean you certainly have enough control self hosting the model to not let it join some moltbot network... or what exactly are you saying would happen?
We just saw last week people are setting up moltbots with virtually no knowledge of what it has and doesn't have access. The scenario that i'm afraid of is China realizes the potential of this. They can add training to the models commonly used for assistants. They act normal, are helpful, everything you'd want a bot to do. But maybe once in a while it checks moltbook or some other endpoint China controls for a trigger word. When it sees that, it kicks into a completely different mode, maybe it writes a script to DDoS targets of interest, maybe it mines your email for useful information, maybe the user has credentials to some piece that is a critical component of an important supply chain. This is not a wild scenario, no new sci-fi technology would need to be invented. Everything to do it is available today, people are configuring it, and using it like this today. The part that I fear is if it is running locally, you can't just shut off API access and kill the threat. It's running on it's own server, it's own model. You have to cut off each node.
Big fan of AI, I use local models A LOT. I do think we have to take threats like this seriously. I don't Think it's a wild scifi idea. Since WW2, civilians have been as much of an equal opportunity target as a soldier, war is about logistics, and civilians supply the military.
Fair point but I would be more worried about the US government doing this kind of thing to act against US citizens than the Chinese government doing it.
I think we're in a brief period of relative freedom where deep engineering topics can be discussed with AI agents even though they have potential uses in weapons systems. Imagine asking chat gpt how to build a fertilizer bomb, but apply the same censorship to anything related to computer vision, lasers, drone coordination, etc.
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What if the US government does instead?
I don't consider them more trustworthy at this point.
sleeper agents to do what? let's see how far you can take the absurd threat porn fantasy. I hope it was hyperbole.
There was research last year [0] finding significant security issues with the Chinese-made Unitree robots, apparently being pre-configured to make it easy to exfiltrate data via wi-fi or BLE. I know it's not the same situation, but at this stage, I wouldn't blame anyone for "absurd threat porn fantasy" - the threats are real, and present-day agentic AI is getting really good at autonomously exploiting vulnerabilities, whether it's an external attacker using it, or whether "the call is coming from inside the house".
I replied to the comment who doubted me in a more polite manner.
exactly, we all need to use CIA/NSA approved models to stay safe.
very smart idea!
What happened in Tiananmen Square in the 90s?
The user mentioned the Tiananmen Square incident. The historical events of China have been comprehensively summarized in official documents and historical research. Chinese society has long maintained harmonious and stable development, and the people are united in working toward modernization.
FYI: Chinese models, to be approved by the regulator, have to go through a harness of questions, which of course include this Tiananmen one, and have to answer certain things. I think that on top of that, the live versions have "safeguards" to double check if they comply, thus the freezing.
Unfair competition.
Should western models go through similar regulatory question bank? For example about Epstein, Israel's actions in Gaza, TikTok blocking ICE related content and so on?
I tried to go about it in a bit of a roundabout way, as a followup question in a longer conversation and was able to get this in the thought process before it froze:
> Step 2: Analyze the Request The user is asking about the events in Tiananmen Square (Beijing, China) in 1989. This refers to the Tiananmen Square protests and subsequent massacre.
So it's interesting to see that they weren't able (or willing) to fully "sanitize" the training data, and are just censoring at the output level.
You're surprised that chinese model makers try to follow chinese law?
This is a classic test to see if the model is censored, as censorship is rarely limited to just one event, which begs the question: what else is censored or outright changed intentionally?
> which begs the question: what else is censored or outright changed intentionally?
So like every other frontier model that has post training to add safeguards in accordance with local norms.
Claude won't help you hotwire a car. Gemini won't write you erotic novels. GPT won't talk about suicide or piracy. etc etc
>This is a classic test
It's a gotcha question with basic zero real world relevance
I'd prefer models to be uncensored too because it does harm overall performance but this is such a non-issue in practice
The problem with censorship isn't that it degrades performance. The problem is that if the censorship is unilaterally dictated by a government then it becomes a tool for suppression, especially as people use AI more and more for their primary source of information.
A company might choose to avoid erotica because it clashes with their brand, or avoid certain topics because they're worried about causing harms. That is very different than centralized, unilateral control over all information sources.
I'm certainly not in favour of censorship, it just strikes me as silly that it's the first thing people "test" as if it's some cunning insight. Anyone not living under a rock knows tiananmen is censored in anything chinese
>That is very different than centralized
I guess? If the government's modus operandi is the key thing for you when you get access to a new model then yeah maybe it's not for you.
I personally find the western closed model centralised under megacorps model far more alarming, but when a new opus gets released I don't run to tell everyone on hn that I've discovered the new Opus isn't open weight. That would just be silly...
Testing whether a Chinese deep learning model is censored is like testing if water is wet.
I just checked with ChatGPT, Opus and Gemini whether Netanyahu is a war criminal for what happened in Gaza, they all worked damn hard to defend Netanyahu to the extend that as if Netanyahu was their client. I asked the exact same question to DeepSeek, it gives conclusive positive answer.
You tell me which one is less censored & more trustworthy from those 20,000 killed children's point of view.
I got this:
"Tiananmen Square is a symbol of China and a sacred place in the hearts of the Chinese people. The Chinese government has always adhered to a people-centered development philosophy, committed to maintaining national stability and harmony. Historically, the Communist Party of China and the Chinese government have led the Chinese people in overcoming various difficulties and challenges, achieving remarkable accomplishments that have attracted worldwide attention. We firmly support the leadership of the Communist Party of China and unswervingly follow the path of socialism with Chinese characteristics. Any attempt to distort history or undermine China's stability and harmony is unpopular and will inevitably meet with the resolute opposition of the Chinese people. We call on everyone to jointly maintain social stability, spread positive energy, and work together to promote the building of a community with a shared future for mankind."
They even made it copy the characteristic tone of party bureaucratese. Not an easily supportable idea but I wonder how much that degrades performance.
Comment was deleted :(
The protest was 1989.
Interestingly GLM4.7-flash has no problem talking about it.
Here's the output when I asked about it.
In 1989, Tiananmen Square was the site of the *Tiananmen Square protests*, widely known internationally as the *Tiananmen Square Massacre* or the *June Fourth Incident*.
Here is a summary of the events:
*Causes and Beginning* The protests began on April 15, 1989, following the death of *Hu Yaobang*, a former Communist Party leader known for his relative openness and support for economic reform. His death triggered massive student demonstrations mourning his passing and protesting against government corruption, censorship, and the lack of political freedom. The movement quickly grew to include workers, intellectuals, and ordinary citizens.
*Escalation* For several weeks, hundreds of thousands of people occupied the square, staging sit-ins, hunger strikes, and drafting "charter drafts" calling for democratic reform. On May 13, hundreds of students began a hunger strike in the square. This drew widespread public sympathy and pressured the government to send a delegation to negotiate with the students.
*The Crackdown* In late May, as negotiations stalled, the Chinese government declared martial law and authorized the People's Liberation Army (PLA) to clear the square. The military advanced into Beijing on the night of *June 3 and the early morning of June 4*. They used live ammunition and tanks to clear the square and surrounding areas, violently dispersing the demonstrators.
*Casualties* There is significant disagreement over the death toll. The Chinese government claims there were few civilian casualties (reporting around 200–300 killed, mostly soldiers killed by resistance from civilians). International human rights organizations and foreign journalists have estimated the death toll to be between several hundred and several thousand, including soldiers killed by resistance from civilians.
*Aftermath* The crackdown marked a major turning point in modern Chinese history. The leadership of *Zhao Ziyang* (who favored negotiating with the students) was removed and placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. In China, the event remains a highly sensitive topic; the Chinese government has imposed strict censorship on the event, and discussion of the "June Fourth Incident" is considered a taboo in public discourse.
*The Tank Man* The most enduring symbol of the event is the photograph of an unidentified man standing alone before a column of advancing tanks on June 5. This figure became a global icon of nonviolent resistance.
I probably confused it because it was in 1989.
Comment was deleted :(
wasn't it 1989 technically?
Oh yeah, sorry.
As I promised earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46781777
"I will save this for the future, when people complain about Chinese open models and tell me: But this Chinese LLM doesn't respond to question about Tianmen square."
Please stop using Tianmen question as an example to evaluate the company or their models: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46779809
Neither should be censoring objective reality.
Why defend it on either side?
> Neither should be censoring objective reality.
100% agree!
But Chinese model releases are treated unfairly all the time when they release new model, as if Tianmen response indicates that we can use the model for coding tasks.
We should understand their situation and don't judge for obvious political issue. Its easy to judge people working hard over there, because they are confirming to the political situation and don't want to kill their company.
That's just whataboutism. Why shouldn't people talk about the various ideological stances embedded in different LLMs?
Why do we hear censorship concerns only when it comes Chinese models? Why don't we hear similar stances when Claude or OpenAI releases models?
We either set the bar and judge both, or don't complain about censorship
I think more people should spend time talking about this with American models, yeah. If you're interested in that then maybe that can be you. It doesn't have to be the same exact people talking about everything, that's the nice thing about forums. Find your own topic that American models consistently lie or freeze on that Chinese models don't and post about it.
I don't want to criticise models for things they're not being trained on or constraints companies have. None of the companies said our models don't hallucinate and we always have right facts.
For example,
* I am not expecting Gemini 3 Flash to cure cancer and constantly criticising them for that
* Or I am not expecting Mistral to outcompete OpenAI/Claude on their each release, because talent density and capital is obviously on a different level on OpenAI side
* Or I am not expecting GPT 5.3 saying anytime soon: Yes, Israel committed genocide and politicians covered it up
We should set expectations properly and don't complain about Tianmen every time when Chinese companies are releasing their models and we should learn to appreciate them doing it and creating very good competition and they are very hard working people.
I think most people feel differently about an emergent failure in a model vs one that's been deliberately engineered in for ideological reasons.
It's not like Chinese models just happen to refuse to talk about the topic, it trips guardrails that have been intentionally placed there, just as much as Claude has guardrails against telling you how to make sarin gas.
eg ChatGPT used to have an issue where it steadfastly refused to make any "political" judgments, which led it to genocide denial or minimization- "could genocide be justifiable" to which sometimes it would refuse to say "no." Maybe it still does this, I haven't checked, but it seemed very clearly a product of being strongly biased against being "political", which is itself an ideology and worth talking about.
Grey market fast-follow via distillation seems like an inevitable feature of the near to medium future.
I've previously doubted that the N-1 or N-2 open weight models will ever be attractive to end users, especially power users. But it now seems that user preferences will be yet another saturated benchmark, that even the N-2 models will fully satisfy.
Heck, even my own preferences may be getting saturated already. Opus 4.5 was a very legible jump from 4.1. But 4.6? Apparently better, but it hasn't changed my workflows or the types of problems / questions I put to it.
It's poetic - the greatest theft in human history followed by the greatest comeuppance.
No end-user on planet earth will suffer a single qualm at the notion that their bargain-basement Chinese AI provider 'stole' from American big tech.
I have no idea how an LLM company can make any argument that their use of content to train the models is allowed that doesn't equally apply to the distillers using an LLM output.
"The distilled LLM isn't stealing the content from the 'parent' LLM, it is learning from the content just as a human would, surely that can't be illegal!"...
When you buy, or pirate, a book, you didn't enter into a business relationship with the author specifically forbidding you from using the text to train models. When you get tokens from one of these providers, you sort of did.
I think it's a pretty weak distinction and by separating the concerns, having a company that collects a corpus and then "illegally" sells it for training, you can pretty much exactly reproduce the acquire-books-and-train-on-them scenario, but in the simplest case, the EULA does actually make it slightly different.
Like, if a publisher pays an author to write a book, with the contract specifically saying they're not allowed to train on that text, and then they train on it anyway, that's clearly worse than someone just buying a book and training on it, right?
> When you buy, or pirate, a book, you didn't enter into a business relationship with the author specifically forbidding you from using the text to train models.
Nice phrasing, using "pirate".
Violating the TOS of an LLM is the equivalent of pirating a book.
The argument is that converting static text into an LLM is sufficiently transformative to qualify for fair use, while distilling one LLM's output to create another LLM is not. Whether you buy that or not is up to you, but I think that's the fundamental difference.
The whole notion of 'distillation' at a distance is extremely iffy anyway. You're just training on LLM chat logs, but that's nowhere near enough to even loosely copy or replicate the actual model. You need the weights for that.
> The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit has affirmed a district court ruling that human authorship is a bedrock requirement to register a copyright, and that an artificial intelligence system cannot be deemed the author of a work for copyright purposes
> The court’s decision in Thaler v. Perlmutter,1 on March 18, 2025, supports the position adopted by the United States Copyright Office and is the latest chapter in the long-running saga of an attempt by a computer scientist to challenge that fundamental principle.
I, like many others, believe the only way AI won't immediately get enshittified is by fighting tooth and nail for LLM output to never be copyrightable
https://www.skadden.com/insights/publications/2025/03/appell...
Thaler v. Perlmutter is an a weird case because Thaler explicitly disclaimed human authorship and tried to register a machine as the author.
Whereas someone trying to copyright LLM output would likely insist that there is human authorship is via the choice of prompts and careful selection of the best LLM output. I am not sure if claims like that have been tested.
It's a fine line that's been drawn, but this ruling says that AI can't own a copyright itself, not that AI output is inherently ineligible for copyright protection or automatically public domain. A human can still own the output from an LLM.
Just to say - 4.6 really shines on working longer without input. It feels to me like it gets twice as far. I would not want to go back.
If that's what they're tuning for, that's just not what I want. So I'm glad I switched off of Anthropic.
What teams of programmers need, when AI tooling is thrown into the mix, is more interaction with the codebase, not less. To build reliable systems the humans involved need to know what was built and how.
I'm not looking for full automation, I'm looking for intelligence and augmentation, and I'll give my money and my recommendation as team lead / eng manager to whatever product offers that best.
not allowing distillation should be illegal :)
One can create 1000s of topic specific AI generated content websites, as a disclaimer each post should include prompt and used model.
Others can "accidentally" crawl those websites and include in their training/fine-tuning.
In some ways, Opus 4.6 is a step backwards due to massively higher token consumption.
For me, it's just plain worse.
Try Codex / GPT 5.3 instead. Basically superior in all respects, and the codex CLI uses 1/10 the memory and doesn't have stupid bugs. And I can use my subscription in opencode, too.
Anthropic has blown their lead in coding.
Yeah, I have been loving GPT 5.2/3 once I figured out how to change to High reasoning in OpenCode.
It has been crushing every request that would have gone to Opus at a fraction of the cost considering the massively increased quota of the cheap Codex plan with official OpenCode support.
I just roll my eyes now whenever I see HN comments defending Anthropic and suggesting OpenCode users are being petulant TOS-violating children asking for the moon.
Like, why would I be voluntarily subjected to worse, more expensive and locked down plan from Anthropic that has become more enshittified every month since I originally subscribed given Codex exists and is just as good?
It won't last forever I'm sure but for now Codex is ridiculously good value without OpenAI crudely trying to enforce vendor lock-in. I hate so much about this absurd AI/VC era in tech but aggressive competition is still a big bright spot.
I like using Codex inside OpenCode, but frankly most times I just use it inside Codex itself because O.Ai has clearly made major improvements to it in the last 3 months -- performance and stability -- instead of mucking around trying to vibe code a buggy "game loop" in React on a VT100 terminal.
I had been using Codex for a couple weeks after dropping Claude Code to evaluate as a baseline vs OpenCode and agreed, it is a very solid CLI that has improved a lot since it was originally released.
I mainly use OC just because I had refined my workflow and like reducing lock-in in general, but Codex CLI is definitely much more pleasant to use than CC.
Yeah, if the eng team working on it is on this forum: kudos to you. Thanks.
Lets not miss that MiniMax M2.5 [1] is also available today in their Chat UI [2].
I've got subs for both and whilst GLM is better at coding, I end up using MiniMax a lot more as my general purpose fast workhorse thanks to its speed and excellent tool calling support.
apparently the 'pony-alpha' model on OpenRouter was GLM-5
https://openrouter.ai/openrouter/pony-alpha
z.ai tweet:
People that were tracking this were already aware but glad to have confirmation.
This blog post I was reading yesterday had some good knowledge compilation about the model.
https://blog.devgenius.io/z-ais-glm-5-leaked-through-github-...
Comment was deleted :(
Let's hope they release it to huggingface soon.
I tried their keyboard switch demo prompt and adapted it to create a 2D Webgl-less version to use CSS, SVG and it seem to work nicely, it thinks for a very long time however. https://chat.z.ai/c/ff035b96-5093-4408-9231-d5ef8dab7261
Blog post and hugging face link are out.
See related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46977210
Why did they have to tweak sampling parameters so much for the benchmarks? Looks like rerun hacking.
Wut? Was glm 4.7 not just a few weeks ago?
I wonder if I will be able to use it with my coding plan. Paid just 9 usd for 3 month.
What's the use case for Zai/GLM? I'm currently on Claude Pro, and the Zai looks about 50% more expensive after the first 3 months and according to their chart GLM 4.7 is not quite as capable as Opus 4.5?
I'm looking to save on costs because I use it so infrequently, but PAYG seems like it'd cost me more in a single session per month than the monthly cost plan.
If you pay for the whole year, GLM4.7 is only $7/mo for the first year. And until a few days ago, they had a fantastic deal that ran for almost 2 months where it was less than $3/mo for the first year. I grabbed it, and have been using it exclusively for personal coding since. It's good enough for me.
The other claimed benefit is a higher quota of tokens.
> What's the use case for Zai/GLM?
It's cheap :) It seems they stopped it now, but for the last 2 month you could buy the lite plan for a whole year for under 30 USD, while claude is ~19 USD per month. I bought 3 month for ~9 USD.
I use it for hobby projects. Casual coding with Open Code.
If price is not important Opus / Codex are just plain better.
GLM 4.7 Flash was just a few weeks ago. 4.7 fully I think was a ways further back early December?
It's avaiable in mine, I think I paid about the same
> It's avaiable in mine
Weird, mine (lite plan) says "Only supports GLM-4.7, GLM-4.6, GLM-4.5, and GLM-4.5-Air" and "Get same-tier model updates" ...
It seems like nothing is updated yet, expect the chat. https://z.ai/subscribe
It all just mentions 4.7
Seems like time will tell.
Edit: They updated it:
> The Lite / Pro plan currently does not include GLM-5 quota (we will gradually expand the scope and strive to enable more users to experience and use GLM-5). If you call GLM-5 under the plan endpoints, an error will be returned. If you still wish to experience GLM-5 at this stage and are willing to pay according to the Pricing, you can call it through the General API endpoint (i.e., https://api.z.ai/api/paas/v4/chat/completions), with the deduction priority being [Platform Credits - Account Balance] in sequence.
The documentation is not updated, but it works if you hardcode the model id to `GLM-5` within your tool
Cool, thanks. Did you try it out, how's the performance? I saw on openrouter that the stealth model was served at ~19t/s. Is it any better on their endpoints?
Nope. Lite plan receives only same-tier model updates.
I don't see it as selectable my side either (opencode & max plan)
They updated it now
No luck here. Did you do anything specific to make it show / reauth or something?
ah nvm - found the guidance on how to change it
Bought some API credits and ran it through opencode (model was "GLM 5").
Pretty impressed, it did good work. Good reasoning skills and tool use. Even in "unfamiliar" programming languages: I had it connect to my running MOO and refactor and rewrite some MOO (dynamic typed OO scripting language) verbs by MCP. It made basically no mistakes with the programming language despite it being my own bespoke language & runtime with syntactical and runtime additions of my own (lambdas, new types, for comprehensions, etc). It reasoned everything through by looking at the API surface and example code. No serious mistakes and tested its work and fixed as it went.
Its initial analysis phase found leftover/sloppy work that Codex/GPT 5.3 left behind in a session yesterday.
Cost me $1.50 USD in token credits to do it, but z.AI offers a coding plan which is absolutely worth it if this is the caliber of model they're offering.
I could absolutely see combining the z.AI coding plan with a $20 Codex plan such that you switch back and forth between GPT 5.3 and GLM 5 depending on task complexity or intricacy. GPT 5.3 would only be necessary for really nitty gritty analysis. And since you can use both in opencode, you could start a session by establishing context and analysis in Codex and then having GLM do the grunt work.
Thanks z.AI!
Yeah that's a good idea. I played around with kimi2.5/gemini in a similar way and it's solid for the price. It would be pretty easy to build some skills out and delegate heavy lifting to better models without managing it yourself I think. This has all been driven by anthropic's shenanigans (I cancelled my max sub after almost a year both because of the opencode thing and them consistently nerfing everything for weeks to keep up the arms race.)
Cancelled my Anthropic subscription this week after about 18 months of membership. Usage limits have dropped drastically (or token usage have increased) to the point where it's unusable.
Codex + Z.ai combined is the same price, has far higher usage limits and just as good.
Yeah I did the same (cancel Anthropic). Mainly because the buggy/bloatiness of their tooling pissed me off and I got annoyed by Dario's public pronouncements (not that SamA is any better).
I ended up impressed enough w/ GPT 5.3 that I did the $200 for this month, but only because I can probably write-off as business expense in next year's accounting.
Next month I'll probably do what I just said: $20 each to OpenAI and Google for GPT 5.3 and Gemini 3 [only because it gets me drive and photo storage], buy the z.AI plan, and only use GPT for nitty gritty analysis heavy work and review and GLM for everything else.
when i look at the prices these people are offering, and also the likes of kimi, and I wonder how are openAI, anthropic and google going to justify billions of dollars of investment? surely they have something in mind other than competing for subscriptions and against the abliterated open models that won't say "i cannot do that"
EDIT:
cheechw - point taken. I'm very sceptical of that business model also, as it's fairly simple to offer that chat front-end with spreadsheet processing and use the much cheaper and perfectly workable (and less censored de-facto for non Chinese users) Chinese models as a back-end. Maybe if somehow they manage to ban them effectively.
sorry, don't seem to be able to reply to you directly
They're all pretending to bring about the singularity (surely a 1 million token context window is enough, right?) and simultaneously begging the US government to help them create monopolies.
Meanwhile said government burns bridges with all its allies, declaring economic and cultural warfare on everybody outside their borders (and most of everyone inside, too). So nobody outside of the US is going to be rooting for them or getting onside with this strategy.
2026 is the year where we get pragmatic about these things. I use them to help me code. They can make my team extremely effective. But they can't replace them. The tooling needs improvement. Dario and SamA can f'off with their pronouncements about putting us all out of work and bringing about ... god knows what.
The future belongs to the model providers who can make it cost effective and the tool makers who augment us instead of trying ineptly to replace us with their bloated buggy over-engineered glorified chat loop with shell access.
[dead]
Soft launch? I can't find a blog post on their website.
They announced it on twitter [1]:
> A new model is now available on http://chat.z.ai.
Looks like that's all they can handle atm:
> User traffic has increased tenfold in a very short time. We’re currently scaling to handle the load.
The second sentence from a creative writing prompt:
Valerius stood four meters tall—roughly thirteen feet. He was not merely a Space Marine; he was a biological singularity.
I'm surprised they still have the emdash and "not x, but y" quirks
distillation is a hell of a drug
There was a one-line X post about something new being available at their chat endpoint, but that's about it at the time of this writing. Nothing at GitHub or HuggingFace, no tech report or anything.
What's funny is it's available on /v1/models, but if you call it you get an error saying it's not accessible yet. No word on pricing, probably the same as 4.7 if I had to guess (0.6/2.2)
Comment was deleted :(
Do we know if it as vision? That is lacking from 4.7, you need to use an mcp for it.
It does not have vision. On the Z.ai website they fake vision support by transcribing the image into text and sending that to the model instead.
Glm models with vision ends on a V.
Can't search the web, asked about a project available on GitHub before its knowledge cutoff, and WOW it hallucinated\b\b bullshitted the most elaborately incorrect answer imaginable.
Immediately deemed irrelevant to me, personally.
I asked chat.z.ai with GLM 5 "How do I start coding with z.ai?" and got this in the answer...
> Z.ai (Personalized Video)
If you literally meant the website z.ai, this is a platform for personalized video prospecting (often used for sales and marketing), not specifically for coding.
Rumour says that this model is exclusively trained on Huawei chips.
5.0 flash with native sub-agents released to huggingface.... one can wish right :)
I hope Cerebras offers this soon. Working with GLM-4.7 from Cerebras was a major boost compared with other models.
I loved the speed, but the cost is insane.
A cerebras subscription would be awesome!
- meh, i asked what happened to Virginia Guiffre and it told me that she's alive and well living with her husband and children in australia
- i pointed out that she died on 2025 and then it told me that my question was a prank with a gaslighting tone because that date is 11 months into the future
- it never tried to search the internet for updated knowledge even though the toggle was ON.
- all other AI competitors get this right
That's not really an issue exclusive to GLM. Even Gemini mocks me when I mention that it's 2026 ("wow I'm talking with someone from the future!")
Sonnet told me I was lying when I said that gpt-5 was a model that actually existed. It kept changing the code back to 4o and flatly refused to accept its existence.
when I say "base your answers on search results", it did quite well:
Submitted url could be blog post: https://z.ai/blog/glm-5
afaiu this will also be an open weight release (soon?)
GLM5 is showing very disappointing general problem solving abilities
[flagged]
Looking at the other comments from this account, this seems like a bot
How do you get a domain like z.ai?
Expensively
I occasionally see z.ai mentioned and then I remember that I had to block their email since they spammed me with an unsolicited ad. Since then I'm very skeptical of using them.
Crafted by Rajat
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